Ah, the joys of travel (updated)

Well, after a very successful and good time in San Diego for the AAR/SBL conference, I am now experiencing the travails of November travel. I'm stuck in the airport of Fargo, ND after being diverted from the Minneapolis/St. Paul airport because of blowing snow. My flight leaves here at 2:00 PM on Wednesday (later today), so it will have taken about 24 hours to get home. Probably longer by the time I clear baggage claim, pick up my car, etc.

Oh, the things we do to sell books! : )

Update: The flight actually left a bit before 4:00 PM. Because Sun Country doesn't normally fly out of Fargo, they don't have a computer system set up there. They had to physically check us off against a printed manifest. Also because they don't normally fly out of Fargo, they don't have a gate. The Sun Country flight that was ahead of us was supposed to leave at 1:00. It still hadn't left at 2:45. At that point, another gate became available and they shifted us over there. If they hadn't done that, we would have been there another half-hour or so.

I finally landed in Minneapolis-St. Paul at 4:30. I had done a reverse park, stay, and fly, so I called the shuttle. It took over an hour for the shuttle because of being so busy and the roads being somewhat slick. I finally got home around 7:30 PM CST. That made for a bit over 24 hours in travel time. . .

I know why!

I'm in San Diego for the Annual Meetings of the AAR/SBL. Over the years, I've noticed a trend. Back when I first started doing this, if you got to the workout room after 6:00 AM, you had a limited choice of equipment. I prefer a stationary recumbent. It used to be they would have three upright bikes and two recumbents, plus elipticals and treadmills. I sometimes ended up on an eliptical.

But over the years, the number of people in the workout room has dropped—and the number of bikes had dropped. This hotel has one each of the bikes, as well as four or five treadmills and ellipticals. Because of the small number, I went to the workout room yesterday at about 5:40. Sure enough, someone was on the upright bike, but that left me the recumbent. Interestingly, during my half-hour there, only two other people came in to workout; one on weights and one on a treadmill.

Knowing from experience that the first day of the conference always has the biggest turnout in the workout room, I went down at 5:30 to ensure getting a bike. No problem; no one else was there. When I left at 6:05, here's what it looked like:

Yep. No one was there. I'll bet the restaurants won't have that problem! And that, my friends is why the waistlines of Americans are getting larger.

San Diego!

I'm in San Diego for the Annual Meetings of ASOR and AAR/SBL! Watch for pictures, etc. on the Eisenbrauns Facebook page and Twitter feed. There's a picture of the ASOR exhibit there right now!

Book Lust!

It's that time of year, just before the Annual Meetings of ASOR, AAR/SBL, ETS, and the publishers are working like crazy to make the conferences with their new books. And I'm going crazy looking at all the forthcoming titles! One just popped up today that makes my drool list:

Myths and Mistakes in New Testament Textual Criticism, edited by Elijah Hixson and Peter J. Gurry, from IVP Academic.

And here's another, from Baker Academic:

Participating in Christ: Explorations in Paul's Theology and Spirituality, by Michael Gorman.

There are more, but those two definitely. And that new Cambridge Greek Grammar, and . . .

Recently read

Over the weekend, I read Women and Power by Mary Beard. I saw it at the local used bookstore (Fair Trade Books) and grabbed it on Friday. It's a short little book, barely 100 pages with the appendix. Unfortunately, it's not one that you can easily extract short little thoughts from, so you won't see any snippets here. But, do take the time to read it. Highly recommended!

Going back to last month, on the way to the atla conference in Vancouver, I read The Battle for Bonhoeffer. I saw it a the AAR/SBL conference last November and begged a copy from Andrew Knapp, the acquisitions editor (and former Eisenbrauns employee). Again, it doesn't lend itself to extracts—or maybe the fact that I was on a plane made me less willing to extract! At any rate, here's what I told Andrew about the book in an email thanking him for it:

It’s a great book! Very balanced. I guess I must have been living in a bubble, because I wasn’t aware of the pre-Metaxus use of Bonhoeffer by the right-wing. I just remember that when I first became a Christian back in 1972, I was warned to stay away from him—which of course means I read him and loved him. I assumed that was the default position of most conservative Evangelicals.

Those of you who have followed this blog over the years might remember that I extracted from Ethics as I was reading it. You can see all the posts here.

Speaking of Bonhoeffer, I finally completed my set last month, taking advantage of the atla conference discount. So now I have a complete set of Dietrich Bonhoeffer's Works in English, even the index volume! Now, to find the time to read them all. . .

On the return flight from atla, I read Christians in Caesar’s Household: The Emperors’ Slaves in the Makings of Christianity, the first book in the series Inventing Christianity. It's a good book, but I think he's a bit pessimistic about the number of Christian convert's in the imperial household. That being said, it is a healthy corrective to the habit of too many in finding converts on every grave marker. He looks at the grave inscriptions that are considered "Christian" and points out the flawed logic behind that identification. A must-read if you are specializing in early Christian history.

Right now, as you know from the recent posts, I'm working my way through The Unfavored. And I'm also reading New Testament Christological Hymns, another book I picked up at AAR/SBL last year. You will (hopefully) see extracts here after I finish The Unfavored. I have other books at various stages of being read, but those the two I'm really reading. Well, the books I'm editing, too, of course. Some of those end up being extracted on this site, too.

Conference!

I'm at the atla conference in Vancouver through Saturday AM. I may or may not be posting until then... meanwhile, I have a few hours to walk around. Seems like a beautiful town!

And the road home from Atlanta is paved with...delays!

For those of you just tuning in, the record of my trip to Altanta is here. I arrived in Atlanta safely, late last Thursday, after a 13 hour day, what with traffic and all. We set up the booth for AAR/SBL on Friday and the conference opened on Saturday. Yesterday, Tuesday, the exhibit closed at noon.

Once a large conference closes, mayhem ensues. Everybody wants to get torn down, packed up, and outta there as quickly as possible. Usually it's because they have a flight to catch. Well, of the four of us, one lives in Atlanta, and the other three of us drove, so the flight deadline wasn't looming. But, I had to get the van out of valet parking before 3:00 or pay for another day, so we wanted to get done. Because everything sold so well (thank you!), the teardown went well. In fact, we were waiting for them to bring our stuff out of the storage so we could pack up. Huh? Well, when you set up, you have to put all the empty boxes and crates on a skid and they store it someplace, fire regulations and all that. So, one of the first things they do is bring up the storage skids—usually!

That wasn't happening, so I went looking (along with other vendors!). I found the foreman, who was frustrated. Apparently the freight elevator had ceased working! Not a good thing. But, they had managed to get it fixed and our skid was soon to be delivered. Sure enough, 5–10 minutes later it showed up.

We still had to skid everything up, even though I drove. The loading dock is down one floor, so they move the skid down there and then it goes on the van. No problems there—until the guy decided he wanted to just load the skid on the van instead of unstacking and restacking. Oops! Too tall. Tear off a few layers and on it goes. Pack the stuff we took off around the skid and I'm ready to go.

I asked the guys standing there about the fastest way to the Interstate. Mistake! They gave me bad directions! I lost 20 minutes trying to get unlost from following them! Oh well...off we go into the wild construction zones of I-75 and I-65! I had hoped to get to Louisville before stopping. Originally, I had hoped that would be around 9:30—10:00. As the traffic moved slowly through the construction zones around Chattanooga, I started hoping for 10:30. It looked like I might make it as I pulled onto I-65 in Nashville. That is, until about 20–30 miles south of Elizabethtown (E-town to those of us who know). There was a 16 mile section where the lanes split; I chose the one with the exits, figuring that if there was an accident, the exits would make it easier for them to clear the road. Bad choice! About 5 miles into it, traffic came to a dead stop. For 27 minutes! And there was no cell phone coverage, so I couldn't even look at what was happening on Google maps. I still don't know what it was, because once traffic started moving, the lane was clear. I hit Louisville around 11:00 and stopped a bit into Indiana.

Today I took off around 8:00 or so and hit the offices in Winona Lake before noon. No problems! I hope the flight out tomorrow is as uneventful!

Musings on DC from DC

I had just finished reading Migrations of the Holy on the plane as we were descending into DC. I had mixed emotions. On the one hand, the architecture and view is pretty impressive: the Capitol building, the Washington Memorial, the Jefferson Memorial, the Potomac river. All muster up feelings that are best described as pride. Yet, my citizenship is in heaven—something that Cavanaugh's book is very good about.

How do we as Christians interact with the nation-state that we live in? I'm not sure Cavanaugh has it all right, but he is headed in the same direction I am. But, because of his high church background, I think he places too much emphasis on the Eucharist/Lord's Supper/Communion and baptism. And, I'm sure I don't agree with him about sin in the church! I'm far too Wesleyan/Anabaptist/Believer's Church to say that sin should be expected in the Church. Still, definitely worth the read, although strongly philosophical in content...

As I like to do when I can, I wondered the area a bit after setup. We're in the Woodley Park area, for those of you who know DC (I don't!). It's a nice neighborhood to walk around in. It reminds me of Hyde Park in Chicago, without the fear of being mugged :) I walked about 4 miles, stopping at a Safeway to pick up a few bananas and a micro-greens salad. There are supposed to be some good vegan restaurants in the area, but the one I had decided to eat at was having a reception that closed it to the public. Oh well, there's always tomorrow.

I must say, CVS owns this neighborhood; I saw 3 of them, with a fourth one opening in late December. Sorry, Lonnie, not a single Walgreens to be seen...

5 years

Yep, five years ago today I started blogging; 1829 posts later, I'm still here. A lot of the people I was interacting with aren't blogging anymore, or sporadically at best. Some have moved about 4-5 times since then, falling prey to the evil Wordpress disease and abandoning the true faith :)

Anyway, I was looking back over some of the early posts today. I had just received my new road bike and was gushing forth about it. Five years later, I still love it and have put over 1300 miles on it. I've also burned out one bike commuting in the winter and am on the second year of another one. This one will probably last longer; the frame and wheels are aluminum, so they won't rust. The cables still need to be replaced each year, but $25.00/year is a lot cheaper than driving a car 11 miles a day to work!

The other thing that was preoccupying me was conference preparation. We have made great progress in that area. In fact, we had a meeting earlier this week and were commenting on how much less stress there is now than then. Basically, we just took all the tasks and spread them out over a few months so that no one month gets overwhelmed—usually! This year has a bit of a push to it with a catalog and a new mug, plus new bags, but its still a lot less stressful (others might disagree...).

I still am reading books and putting excerpts up on the blog. The nature of the books hasn't changed much, either. Does that mean I'm stable, or does it just mean I'm in a rut? Just an
<idle musing>

Last minute details

It's that time of the year when all the last minute details jump out at you. I'm getting our shipment ready to go to SBL; it has to leave Monday in order to get there without a penalty—and the last thing I need is a penalty! They already charge an arm and a leg for drayage! So, my time today has been spent building the skid of display material, making the pick-up appointment, running to the print shop to get the order forms, on and on the list goes...all the last minute stuff.

Don't get me wrong here, I really love this stuff. It just all seems to pile up at the last minute. You seem to be on schedule, everything is ready...then, BOOM something you forgot, or something is late, or... Yep, it's that time of year :)

So, after the SBL shipment goes on Monday, the ASOR shipment goes on Wednesday, and the follow-up ETS shipment goes on Thursday, I have nothing to do about conferences for 2 days. Then, Tuesday morning, November 17, I'm off to the airport and the conferences.

Once I get to New Orleans and get checked into the hotel, I head on over and set up the ETS display. ETS starts on Wednesday at 9:00 AM...I'm tired just thinking about it. I think I'll just live a day at a time. Maybe that's why Jesus said not to worry about tomorrow, eh?

ATLA Day 2

Seems they roll up the streets in downtown St. Louis after 9:00 PM on a weeknight. By the time I got ready to go to dinner, there weren't many choices within walking distance. I ended up just going to the hotel's eatery. I ordered a reuben, asking for extra kraut—triple the kraut actually. Most restaurants just run a few strings of kraut over their reubens, but a reuben needs kraut to be any good. When the waitress brought out the sandwich, she told me she hadn't just asked for extra kraut, but had made the cook put some more on the side. I dissected the sandwich and added the extra kraut. Finally, a reuben with enough kraut on it!

I take back what I said about the food being all sugar on the breaks. The morning break had orange juice, apple juice, V-8™, granola bars, apples, bananas, and oranges. No milk, but better than sugar and grease. I had some more good conversations with people, showing them our wares. As always, people appreciated our reasonable prices in comparison to some publishers.

After the final break and drawing, it was time to tear down, pack up and head home. I had forgotten to bring our portable 2-wheeler, so it was a one box at a time trek to the car. Hauling boxes in 90 degree heat is not my idea of fun.

The drive home was hot, but the sky was beautiful with storm clouds all around. I managed to stay ahead of the storm until Indianapolis, where I turned north. The lightning was lighting up the sky with long fingers and I knew it was just a matter of time before the rain hit. Sure enough, about an hour from home it started raining hard. By then it was dark, too, so 45 MPH was the maximum speed, but I got home safely.

ATLA-Day one

I just got back from working out; the work-out room was full this morning at 6:00 AM. As some of you know, I judge a hotel by its work-out area. You know if a hotel is good by how they treat the equipment there. I would say it is OK. The equipment is second tier, but it works—except for the heart rate monitor. It kept saying my heart rate was 124; I took a quick check and it was in the 150s, which is normal. I know, 220-53=167 max heart rate times 80% for target range is 130s. Guess what? My maximum heart rate is not normal for my age...

Anyway, as I was saying...the workout room was full at 6:00 this morning, so I didn't get my normal workout. I sure could tell. I couldn't remember the Edzard was the author of Sumerian Grammar, I said Hans Dieter Betz! For those who don't know, Betz is a New Testament scholar, not a Sumerologist. Later I couldn't remember the name of Johnson Speaks to Us—and I was talking to the librarian from Pittsburgh Seminary where he taught. Oops! So, I definitely need a workout to get my brain rolling on conference mornings.

I like the ATLA conference. It is one of my favorites. It used to be my favorite, but since Tim left the break food has become sugar and fat. It used to be fresh fruit, yogurt, milk, granola bars—along with sugary stuff. But the last two years it has only been sugary stuff, although this morning they did have yogurt and bananas, which was nice. Don't get me wrong, they run a super nice conference, I just miss that one aspect. This Minnesota/Wisconsin bred boy needs his half-gallon of milk a day to function right, and all they offered was corn-syrupy sodas...I drank a lot of water :)

OK, enough of the bad stuff! I have had great conversations with people, lots of compliments on our books, probably some new customers. All the stuff that makes a conference worth attending. But, I still miss my milk...I am going out to eat now—I hope there is a place with lots of milk and cheese :)

Here is our display. I think we need to go with a darker banner; the Qumran scroll is just too light for most venues.



Bobby, I know you read this blog, so this is for you. I took a picture of the Hendrickson table. I loaned you the bookstands for the back books, but was short 2. It looks better in person than it does in the picture.

Tacit

Been a bit quiet here on the blogging front...I'm getting ready for the ATLA conference in St. Louis. I leave tomorrow...

If you are in the St. Louis area and want to be admitted to the book exhibit, I have some free passes. Just leave a comment letting me know, along with your e-mail address, and I will get back to you.

AAR Day 3

This post is going to be a stream of consciousness post, as I compose it throughout the day.

I got to the exhibit hall early to use the computers in the Cyber Cafe, a little after 7:30. Wow, they must have just disinfected something, because the ammonia smell was really strong. It dissipated in about 5 minutes, but it was sure strong for those few minutes.

I wish I were the one running the Cyber Cafe. They are the only place with lines! The shortest it has been is 1 person waiting, and they have about 10 computers.

I just found out that Barack Obama is going to be staying at this hotel tonight. They are shutting everything down tomorrow morning and no freight is leaving the hotel until Thursday. They are allowing individuals to take their boxes out to vans, but that is all. I hope I don't have a problem getting out of here tonight, but I do feel sorry for all the people who have to catch a plane tomorrow. They will probably have to allow an extra hour or two to get to the airport.

Well, at 3:00 PM I heard the tape guns start; that means people are tearing down and packing up. By 4:00 about 50% of the back section were gone, but the front section seemed to be holding on. By 4:30, about two-thirds to three-quarters of the back were packed up, or packing up. The front section caught the bug. I took some pictures of what it looked like, but they are too depressing to post. At 5:10, the official announcement came over the loudspeaker: “Due to popular demand, the exhibit hall is closed.”

How depressing. The people who promised to come by on Monday didn't. I think I can safely say that I speak for all the publishers in saying that it was a depressing conference with disappointing to non-existent sales...I hope SBL isn't like this!

AAR Day 2

Well, traffic in the hall was a bit better today. You could still do gymnastics in the aisles for a good portion of the day, but there were several times when it was actually approaching being busy. Here's hoping that Monday is a busy day...

As it always works, I had a person looking for one of the titles I didn't bring. I asked them if they would be at SBL as well, since I would have it there. Nope. They took an order form and will order it.

A highlight is that the mug is a hit. I don't know if people are as interested in the graphic as they are the shape and color, at least that is what they all comment on. That's kind of discouraging in a way; we worked hard to get the graphic to look good on the mug (OK, Andy did), and people are more excited about the shape and color! Oh well, that's marketing. At least it says Eisenbrauns on it, so they will remember where they got it :)

Here is a picture of our booth. I'm thinking about turning the banner into a bookmark. What do you think? Would you want an Eisenbrauns bookmark with 9800 book cover images on it?



After the exhibit shut down for the night, Bobby K (Hendrickson) and I went out for dinner, but first we hopped on the elevator to drop stuff in our rooms. The elevator stopped at my floor; the door opened about an inch, and stuck, then closed. Uh-oh. Visions of being stuck on an elevator danced in my head. But, we held the “door open” button down and it opened. Most of the people on the elevator opted to get off and try another one. After I dropped my stuff in the room and came back, the same elevator was there again, but the people waiting said they had barely gotten off it and weren't about to go on it again. We all waited for the next one.

Safely back in the lobby again, I met Bobby and we went to a Mexican restaurant on Wabash. I can't remember the name of it, but it is right next to the Opera (an Asian restaurant—obvious, right?). The food was good, the company was better (thanks, Bobby) and we had a good time talking for about 3 hours. By the way, their cheesecake dessert was unlike anything I had ever tried before and excellent; if you ever get there, be sure to try it.

AAR day 1

OK, the wireless didn't work in the conference hall (they said it would), so I am using another machine to post this. All that means is that I can't post any pictures.

The AAR people are telling us that they have about 5,000 people registered; there were 3500 preregistrations. But, you wouldn't know it in the exhibit halls. I am not sure if it is because it is in the basement and the elevators aren't immediately obvious, or if it is because the meetings are scattered between 2-3 other places, but you could do gymnastics in the aisles and not hit anybody.

<idle musing>
I am musing here, but I think SBL members tend to buy more books. And, I think the reason is because SBL revolves around a book—the Bible. Even if it is to say how wrong it is, or obsolete, or whatever, their work is constrained by a text, which tends to make them more book-centered. AAR, on the other hand, is open to any "religion" which is about as nebulous as you can get. No need for books...just an
</idle musing>

This is a new one on me, maybe not to others, but it is to me: There are televisions in the elevators here! Yep, you can't get away from them, they are set on CNN and are in the wall of the elevator just above the buttons. The sound is piped in from the ceiling. As much as I hated Muzak™, this is even worse. Are we that addicted to news and television?

I went swimming last night. The pool is 20 yards and has 4 lanes; the water isn't too warm for lap swimming, although it is a bit warmer than regular pools. It was refreshing after a day in the exhibit halls. After that I went to the Liturgical Press reception; they always have nice reception. Last year they sponsored a tour of the Dead Sea Scrolls in San Diego. This year it was in the back of an Italian restaurant; very well done. Thanks to Joe, Brian and Hans for putting it on—so now go buy a volume of Sacra Pagina, Berit Olam, Aramaic Bible, or St. John's Bible to help them pay for it :)

Yesterday at lunch I was on a panel discussion with 2 others sponsored by the ATLA and AAR. The discussion was non-teaching options for graduate students in theology and religion. For some reason they thought I might know something about that :) It was an interesting time and I enjoyed it. I hope they went away from it having learned something. I reassured them that even though I wouldn't have chosen the path I ended up taking, God was there at every turn and He took care of us.

This is getting long, so I had better end it...more later.

AAR Day 0

Yes, day zero :) The conference technically began last night at 7:00, with the exhibit halls being open until 9:00. Attendance was light, to be kind.

The exhibit hall is divided into 2 halves and is in the deep dungeons of the Chicago Hilton. It isn't immediately obvious to people that there are 2 halves, so maybe most people stayed in the other half. I haven't talked to anyone from that half yet, so I don't know if they had more people. But, there was a nice reception going on for attendee—on the second floor! That probably kept quite a few people away.

The accommodations are nice, although why I would need two bathrooms in my room is beyond me. The workout room is actually an "Athletic Club." They have Precor equipment all around, treadmills, ellipticals, stationary bikes, and recumbents. Very nice. I grabbed a recumbent and rode for half hour, but I have to laugh at the heart rate thing. I have learned that I have to tell it that I am 40 or it thinks I have exceeded my maximum heart rate and should be dead. Even then, it thinks I am working too hard. For those of you keeping score, I am actually 52, but my maximum heart rate is much higher than most people that age.

They even have a real swimming pool! It is only 20 yards and 4 lanes, but it is swimmable. I think tonight after the exhibits close I will go for a swim. They told me it is chlorine, which is good because I am allergic to bromide. For those of you still reading, bromide is the most common chemical used in hot tubs, etc., but a large percentage of people are allergic to it, including me. Some pools are using bromide now, too. It is easier to get the balance right and cheaper, as well.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. Today at noon I am part of an AAR panel on "what to do with a religion/humanities degree other than teach." It includes lunch, so that is nice. I have no idea what I will be asked, but I can say that I have enjoyed the 20 plus years of not being in school and doing all kinds of interesting jobs, for the last 5 right here at Eisenbrauns.

I will try to get pictures up later. I even remembered the USB cable this time :)

ATLA morning

Here are a couple of pictures. This is not a fancy display; I didn't even bring our pull-up banner because United would have charged me $25.00 to check it.

Thoughts on travel

Well, I finally arrived at the hotel tonight. I arrived at the airport in South Bend (Indiana) around 3:00. I got a ride from Debbie's parents, since the hood still hasn't arrived for our car yet—although it is supposed to arrive on Thursday. I went to check in and the auto check-in wouldn't let me. It said something about overbooked flight or missing connecting flight. Immediately visions of staying the night at the airport flash to my mind :(

Well, turns out that the weather—lots of thunderstorms—had backed up South Bend and Chicago. My flight to Ottawa from Chicago would be gone by the time I left South Bend. But, they put me on a later flight. Problem solved. The flight, which was supposed to leave at 4:08, ended up leaving at 5:30. When I got to O'Hare, the flight I was originally booked on was still in the gate, so I could have made it. Instead I sat in the airport for an extra 2 hours. No problem though, I just caught up on some blog reading.

The flight to Ottawa was pretty uneventful, but the guy next to me was reading a Dan Brown type novel. He glanced over at what I was reading—the Greek New Testament. He went back to his novel. Too bad! It could have gotten interesting :)

Because I had shipped books ahead of me, they sent me to customs. I sat there for a long time while they grilled some people in front of me. I was wondering what I would be in for when all of a sudden a new customs officer appears with two people in tow. Apparently they had tried to bring meat into the country without declaring it. From Iraq! Uh-oh! They're probably still there, or in jail.

When they got to me, the customs woman asked me why I was here, what I had shipped, why I had shipped it and then let me go. I offered to show her the book I had in my backpack: Ashkelon 1, but she wasn't interested. I told her I was proud of it and that it was just published. She reluctantly agreed to let me show it to her, but she didn't seem impressed by its 7 pounds of mass. Oh well.

One advantage of catching the later flight was that I ran into the guys from TBN and we shared a cab. Since it was around 11:00 at night, I didn't see much of the city, but it looks nice. Hopefully I can walk around some while I am here.

When I got to my room and opened my suitcase, I noticed that they had rummaged through it. I had a brand new bottle of contact lens solution in a side pouch. The unzipped the pouch and moved it. It was still sealed, or I bet I wouldn't have it anymore. They also took my toothpaste! I've never had that happen before. Oh will, it has been a long day with 8 hours in airports, so I think I will head for bed. The hotel has a workout room that I will use in the morning.

AAR and SBL back together?

Pat McCullough posts an e-mail he just received, and checking the AAR website confirms it...

The AAR board of directors has decided to schedule "concurrent, yet independent Annual Meetings with the Society of Biblical Literature as soon as is feasible." Which means from 2012 on, since the meetings are already scheduled through 2011 (and that one is already concurrent).

They go on to state "a single, jointly sponsored Book Exhibit." The sound you heard was all the booksellers rejoicing that they will not have to decide which one to display at, or at both.

HT: Jim West